Department of Social Development Act - June 1, 2005

Mr. Merv Tweed (Brandon—Souris, CPC): Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure to speak today on Bill C-22. I wish to advise the House that the member for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar provided me with some of the information, as she sits on that committee.

    Many Canadians may know, or they may not, that these programs fall under the old Human Resources and Development Canada department, or HRDC. Anyone who has followed the history of this department will certainly bear witness to the fact that institutional changes needed to be made. They were required to fix the many problems within the department as it existed. Canadians were tired of Liberal boondoggles and were demanding that business not continue as usual. The Liberals were wasting billions through the department and spending dirty money elsewhere at the time. Changes were clearly needed.

    Changes were required, and while the case was never really made that a full division, split and overhaul of the department was needed, there was no question that Canadians could not afford a repeat of the boondoggles of the past. That said, I am still not sure if this legislation prevents either of those things from happening.

    Normally departments are merged to save money, so one can only assume, and I think Canadians can only assume, that splitting this department will cost taxpayers unnecessarily. During a briefing on this legislation, the question was asked but never answered. Perhaps now the government has an answer. How much will these changes cost in addition to what we have had before?

    Unfortunately, the Liberal government started the split long before it brought the bill to Parliament. In effect, the Liberals put the cart before the horse. As we have seen with other departments that the Liberals have split without consulting, I guess they believe it is probably better to ask for forgiveness than get permission.

    I have to say that their attitude and way of doing business does not surprise me. The current government has made a habit of circumventing Parliament and has developed a reactionary approach to everything it does. Instead of being leaders and taking a proactive approach to the leadership of the nation, the Liberals continue to run around trying to put out fires by throwing money at them. While it has been proven to be an unsuccessful approach, they blindly continue.

    If we were to oppose the legislation, the cost of reversing the changes already made would likely cost more than it would just to complete the split. In effect, the Liberal government has failed to consult with Parliament on the change to HRDC and the creation of social development. To that, we say shame.

    Again the Prime Minister has failed to provide Parliament with an opportunity to become more involved and more relevant in the spending of government. Rather than consult us before the fact, we are simply treated as rubber stamps. So much for decreasing the democratic deficit, but then again, even if the committee had recommended alternative action, the Prime Minister has also shown he considers our work irrelevant.

    I am thinking of the environment committee and its recommendation not to allow a patronage appointment of a former Winnipeg Liberal candidate to go ahead. The Prime Minister is going ahead anyway. So much for committee work.

    This is unacceptable, not just because it silences the members of the House, but because it makes the people we represent irrelevant.

    I have to tell Canadians that either the Prime Minister does not consult the House or, when he does, he ignores what members have to say. This was stated earlier: who said the former prime minister was the dictator?

    As word spreads of the Liberal government's autocratic ways, more and more Canadians are demanding a return to the democracy for which our veterans fought. Canadians want a Parliament that can and will make binding decisions on important issues. They want their representatives to have more than just a say. They want their representatives to be involved in the decisions and have the power to influence those decisions. I could not agree more with Canadians.

  If the Liberals want to improve both the way MPs work and the quality of our work, they need to come to us first, before making changes, not after.

    As I said earlier, this department already exists. The minister is at the cabinet table and announcements were in the budget. Exactly what is it that we are being asked to approve in this legislation? From my side of the House, it looks like a done deal.

    Before my time runs out, I want to pass along some important information that Canadians should know about. There is a website that can assist them in accessing any benefits they may be entitled to. This website lists almost every federal and provincial program there is.

    To make it easier to determine what applies to an individual, there is a user friendly feature. All one has to do is answer a few questions. It will then short-list the programs that may apply. I am asking the people watching today to grab a pen because I plan to give them that website address shortly.

    Before I do, I want to stress that this website address is the subject of one of the most common complaints that most MPs get from those in need. The complaint is that it is too difficult to find, apply for and access programs that already exist.

    As I said, this website can be found at canadabenefits.ca. I would encourage all MPs to add it as a link to their websites to give people within their constituencies easier access. The government has a record of taxing the poor but not making it easy or accessible for the poor to get back their hard-earned money when in need. I hope, and I am sure members hope, that this website will help change that.

    Social Development has a massive mandate that is guaranteed to touch every single Canadian at some point in their lives. Whether it is seniors, children, families, the disabled, volunteers or participants in the social economy, the new department will have an impact on us and on those close to us. Even if we do not need to turn to the government for assistance today, our pension plans will likely be administered by this department.

    As always, we have some serious concerns that a department this large could quickly balloon out of control for this management challenged government, and we are concerned that such a large ministry will be sidetracked by new, large social initiatives. We have already seen social wings fighting over the proposed child care program.

    It will take the efforts of MPs, Canadians and especially the people who work at the social development department to ensure that these radical structural changes do not fall off the rails and cost us billions again. Every dollar this government wastes on a new program is a dollar lost to a program that is already in place and quite often underfunded. As I have said before, I hope the government stays on top of the costs associated with this change to ensure they do not get out of hand.

    As was pointed out earlier, this new department was born from the split of HRDC into Social Development and HRSDC, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada. The government has highlighted the strong coordination, cooperation and co-working arrangements between the two split departments, and it certainly appears to be duplication and overlap to me.

    We look forward to the minister perhaps clarifying some of the reasons why the old department could not do what the new ones can or are asked to do and also how much it will save Canadians. This has been asked before, but it has yet to be answered.

    I suspect the savings will not prevail. I cannot see how new letterhead, computer systems, websites and the like save anyone any money. In fact, the departments already carry a lot of overlap and duplication. Information is available on both the SD and the HRSDC websites. Yet again it begs the question of why a single department does not make sense over two. I will ask--and I will hope--the government to come up with that creative answer.

  Some of my colleagues will speak to this bill also and I believe that they share the same concerns as I do for Canadians in need. The government needs to ensure timely, properly supported services to those under duress. Canadians do not want hassles, delays and excuses. They want access and they want help.

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 Mr. Merv Tweed: Madam Speaker, as I stated in my opening remarks, there is no logic. In fact, when governments are looking at trying to create benefits and savings for departments, usually they merge them. Perhaps the government could answer to this better than I, but I suspect that a promise was made to somebody that another department would be created for a member of the government.

    There is no logic that I can see. In fact, we have seen so far increased costs. We have not seen a government come forward with a plan that is going to show exactly how it is going to work and cooperate in the same functions that it used to. It is very frustrating for Canadians. It is very frustrating for people who need to access the programs that are available.

    We will continue to chase the government, as I suspect the member will, to ensure that the money that is being allocated to these departments is actually reaching the people it is intended to serve.

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Mr. Merv Tweed: Madam Speaker, that is the issue for all of Canada. A government's time and days here have to be numbered if it does not listen to the members who are duly elected and sent here to represent the people, and if it is not prepared to move forward and listen to what elected MPs have to say. It is very frustrating.

    As frustrating as it is for us, imagine how frustrating it is for Canadians to see this happen. They elect people. They give them the responsibility to act on their behalf, and when we do as MPs, it is ignored by the government. The government, whose Prime Minister has claimed is the leader of democratic reform in this country, then turns around and totally ignores the will and wishes of not only the MPs in this House but of the Canadian public.

    It is a recipe for disaster and in a lot of cases the debate that we are having on this particular issue is irrelevant. It is something that the government has chosen to move forward and do, with or without permission of the members of Parliament or without the approval of Canadians, and that, as I said earlier, is shameful.

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   Mr. Merv Tweed: Madam Speaker, obviously, governments have motives for everything that they do. The real issue is that the government never consulted with members of the House. It moved forward on this issue. They are operating as two individual departments now without the authority or the approval of the House and that is the issue.

    Governments that act that way are irresponsible and are not representing the people and not giving us, as elected officials, the opportunity to have some input into the decisions that are made. I stated very clearly that government members put the cart before the horse. All we are saying to the government is that when it continues to do that and it continues to neglect and not listen to what members of Parliament are saying and what Canadians are saying, it does so at its own peril.